TSLP Season 4 Ep. 4- Drama vs Leadership

How much of what’s draining your team is actually the work and how much of it is the drama around it?

In this compelling Season 4 episode of the Transformation Station Leadership Podcast, I’m joined by Charles Sheppard for a real conversation on the difference between drama and leadership. We unpack how emotional reactivity, assumptions, blame, and unnecessary tension can quietly derail trust, decision-making, and team performance.

Charles shares powerful insights on how leaders can recognize when drama is driving the culture instead of clarity, and what it takes to shift from reactive patterns into grounded, intentional leadership. This episode is packed with practical wisdom for leaders who want to reduce noise, strengthen accountability, and create healthier team dynamics.

If you’re ready to lead with less chaos and more clarity, this conversation is one you don’t want to miss.

Learn more about Charlie:
Website: https://sheppardpartners.com
LinkedIn:   / charliesheppard 
Facebook:   / cosheppard 

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Until next time, stand tall, step bold, and own your transformation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Hello there. You know, it's so important that we remember that real leadership is not about amplifying emotion. It's about creating direction. And today we're going to talk about creating direction with no more drama. Come on, let's get this conversation started. No, we lead it, we live it, and we ignite it. I'm your host, Adrian Benton, and today we're tackling a topic that every leader must learn to navigate. That's right, we're talking about drama versus leadership. And I'm super excited about our guest today. He is a leader who understands the critical difference between reacting emotionally and leading intentionally. But before I tell you a little bit more about our guest, I'm so excited. You know that I love to celebrate. And so that's exactly what we're going to do. What are we celebrating today? Well, listen, I'm so glad you asked. We are celebrating the fact that because you that's right, give yourselves a round of applause because of you and your intentionality. Today we are celebrating that you have allowed Transformation Station Leadership Podcast to cross the 5,000 mark. And guess what? We're actually today, today, this is a live session. We're at 5100 podcast downloads. Again, I just want to say thank you so much. Because of you, we continue to grow. But guess what? We're in season four. And so I want to remind you of this. If you have missed even one episode of season one, season two, or season three, guess what you got to do? You gotta go back and get caught up because we want to grow. We're at 5,000 right now, but 6,000, 7,000, 10,000. It's time for us to continue to continue to let Transformation Station Leadership Podcast truly be global. I also want to remind you that next week we have our second virtual conference. Lead her shift. Our four-day conference is starting next week. It's going to be next week from the 13th to the 16th of April. Now, in January, over 400 of women leaders, you registered, and we had an amazing time together. If you have not registered, it's time for you to do so today. So you will find the conference link in the chat in the description box. I want you to go ahead and click on it and don't come by yourself. You need to come with someone else because in the first conference, we talked about leadership, right? The reset. This one we're talking about leadership adjustment. Life happens. But when life happens, that's not a sign to quit. It's a sign that maybe you just need to adjust and keep on moving forward. So be sure to join us for the conference. Go ahead and click the link and sign up and register today. Well, listen, I am absolutely thrilled and excited to share with you that today we have Charles Shepard who is with us. Now, he is the co-founder of a biotech company pioneering next generation therapies in oncology. He builds software tools for leadership development at scale and creates a phone-based microlearning platform that delivers behavioral insights that leaders can apply immediately. He is the author of Get Off the Fence, You Matter More Than You Realize, a book that weaves systems thinking and environmental science into a clear-eyed call for personal responsibility in the face of global complexity. I am absolutely thrilled and excited to welcome today. Listen, Charles, it's wonderful to have you. Welcome to Transformation Station Leadership Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

What an amazing, uh, what an amazing accomplishment. And and just uh by the way, this is me meeting your listeners for the first time. If you want to hear the energy in sound that embodies leadership, listen to Adrian, right? I'm just telling you right now, no, I'm serious. Is there's an energy that happens when somebody has such a clear vision about where they're going, the sound energy is different, and you can actually hear it. It's it is there's no doubt in my mind that you'll grow the podcast because it's easy to listen to. There's a there's a sound energy that happens and can only happen with a level of congruence that you're doing. So I'm just telling you, I just I'm I'm listening to you, I'm hearing you speak, and I'm going, oh man, this is this is actually working on me at uh unconscious level, even. So congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Thank you so much. I'm so glad you're here. And Trisha is with us as well. Trisha, welcome. We're so glad you're with us today in this episode. Now, listen, Charles, I've been looking forward to this episode because I think that we're talking about uh we're having a conversation that's really relevant to leadership, right? Yep. So uh I want to start off by asking you this question. When you think about the difference between drama and leadership, what are the clearest behaviors or mindsets that you find separates the two?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

So uh part of the backstory that happens between the distinction between drama and leadership, historically, people would compare here's what a manager is to here's what a leader is, right? That was the classic contrast. And for me as a behavioral scientist, well, when I look at it from a behavioral standpoint, the behaviors of good managers and the behaviors of good leaders are almost identical. So it became it wasn't like a good contrast, and so that led me down as a professor of leadership. I had to go, I don't care for this contrast. And if you look at the actual behaviors, it's the that's the classic is uh people that are in the what I call the leadership triangle or truly visionary, people that are in the drama triangle have this victim, it's being done to them mindset, right? So it's an external locus of control versus an internal locus of control. The second thing is is people that are in drama run around trying to rescue others. If you're in the leadership, you'll actually believe in them to actually coach them to grow them, right? So there's the difference between rescuing people and growing them, yes, and then and then there's this other area which is really fundamental. A lot of people who are generating drama are uh so controlling, they start micromanaging everything, and it becomes a little bit like Adrian, you either do it this way or you're fired, right? That's their motivational versus really understanding how to be a catalyst to unlock, and and being a catalyst means that you've got to understand how people are fundamentally motivated, but also how they think and how they think together in groups, and a catalyst will sit there and bring people together so that they think better by being a group where the adversary is actually putting friction into that, where it fractures people and the number one behavior yes, uh people talk trash about each other in the drama triangle, in the top triangle, people are being each other's advocates. I I just realized that I'm I'm just meeting you on the podcast. I started out by being your advocate, like going, oh, I heard I heard the sound energy, and I want, oh, I'm gonna point that out to your listeners. So people who are in what I call the leadership triangle are operating from a fundamentally different mindset, which generates the behaviors.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah, you know, as you were talking, I've I've I was thinking about the fact that I have a boss, I have a supervisor who one of the things that he consistently says in the workspace is this is not personal. Because he wants you to know that, you know, if if this is a moment where we need to have quote unquote a tough conversation, if there needs to be some correction or clarification, he wants you to start from the framework of I'm not attacking you. Yeah, we're talking about the situation. That situation is not your identity. You know, he'll constantly he'll tell us, you know, periodically, like when this conversation is over, we're done. Like we're gonna move on. I'm gonna smile. We're and that has brought psychological safety to the workplace, right? Um, and so you know, here in Transformation Station, we always invite our listeners and our viewers to pause and to really take in the conversation that we're having. And I want to invite everybody right now, you know, Charles is really giving us some really good key tips on how we can lead forward, right? Removing the drama that sometimes keeps attention on the problem. And so hone in, listen, and also tell us in the chat right now what is resonating with you, what's coming forward as you're hearing this conversation. So I want to ask you this question next, right? Because I know somebody's thinking it. How can we as leaders recognize when emotional reactions, conflict, or distractions are turning drama, are turning into drama that will weaken our team performance?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

So my definition of drama is uh for drama to actually occur, two or more people have to be engaged with it.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Right. So that that is the definition. Otherwise, I'm just feeling bad, which is okay, right? But you didn't create any additional drama, you're just you're you're over here feeling bad, right? So uh what happens is when I take that state into everyone else, and and we now know, and so this is the main thing is you you have to recognize the state first in yourself. If you want to get my definition of somebody in the drama triangle versus the leadership triangle, it's fundamentally are you bringing uh a quality energy into this conversation or are you pulling energy out of the conversation? So you're either a net generator of energy or you're a taker of energy. So that just lets you know if you are taking energy, there's a bit of uh a piece that we have to actually even understand that something like the drama triangle exists. It comes as standard equipment with every human being, it's not optional, right? That is the baseline, and and I can get into the kind of the neuroscience behind it, but this is a pattern that's hardwired across every culture, across every human being that I've ever run across. And it takes leadership as optional. So the first thing is to do is to notice that sometimes you do get stuck in the drama triangle, and the more you can identify it, and the way that I identify it is that I'm in an energy state, it's not serving me. It's this is such a uh you know, I and usually it's because you don't choose, right? I I took um uh my son and my stepson skiing, it was a beautiful, gorgeous day. It was a powder day. I got up early. I'm an addicted snow skier. I used to race in college as a national ski patrol, right? So I got up, I was up early, but this was a trip. These two boys were home for college. I wanted to be skiing with them, and they're being typical, man. They just wanted to sleep in. So I stood out in the run, conflicted, because I wanted to be with them and I wanted to be up on the mountain, and I got frustrated. So the frustration came from me not choosing. Either choice would have been fine had I just chosen to go, I'm gonna go take care of myself right now, or what's more important for me is being with these two boys. But what I did is I stood there being frustrated that I didn't have either one and didn't make a choice. It's the absence of choosing. The the piece that I like to say is leadership is a choice, yes, and not choosing is a choice. So I put myself into a frustrated state. I went, oh damn, I did it to myself. So recognition is the key. I put myself into that energetic state. I was pulling energy in versus generating it, and the way out is sometimes if you're in a stuck state, make a choice.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

I love that. If you're in a stuck state, make a choice. Hashtag make a choice. Everybody's listening and watching right now. You know, as you were talking, I was just thinking about the fact that drama keeps attention focused on the problem, and leadership shifts the focus to principles and solutions.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

All right. And so, as leaders, if you find that everything is problem-based, that's a sign right there, right? And you also want to ask yourself are you leading from a place of being emotionally charged? Because this conversation that we're having right now with Charles, you getting a chance to, like he said, make a choice. You literally can make a choice today, right now, be aware, recognize, and choose to pivot. So, Charles, let me ask you this you talk about moving from victim to visionary. Yeah, what does that transformation look like in action?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I so in action, you can find things that you get stuck on. I was in a conversation with someone who is denying climate change, and this is a this is an issue that's near and dear to my heart. I found that I didn't have the words to actually talk to this individual. So, what I ended up doing is I go, Oh, I don't have a vision for this. I feel like I can't affect the climate conversation. I felt like it's the the interlocking systems of how we do energy across the world and the climate change that's going on felt so large that I felt like I was a victim to that situation and the scenario. And so in that case, I went, uh, I don't have a vision for this. And and that's where I kind of started going down. Okay, so what are my what are my superpowers? Well, I understand the nature of metaphor, I understand systems thinking, I understand how to convey complex information in a way that's understandable for people. I love poetry, right? So I put all those things together and then wrote a book. That's the get off the fence book, is it was a way of giving people an understanding about how they can positively engage with the conversation of climate change, and then that came to you know, it's interesting when you do something and you actually have a clear vision, good stuff just starts to happen. I'm working now and partnering with the CEO of the largest kind of Earth's marketing agency that has a vision of making this the most important issue for 8 billion people across the planet, and so it I can only tell you after now I've been around for a long enough period of time when the clarity of vision comes, the world starts to operate differently around you. It's it's luck starts to show up, or you're either priming or embedding the code inside of your brain so that you're noticing the things that you need to happen. Whatever I I'm I don't care how you sit there and organize your belief systems. I'm pretty agnostic about anybody's belief, but I can tell you definitively when you get clear about where it is you want to go and how you want to get there, stuff happens.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Absolutely. I love that. You know, as you were talking, I'm thinking it's almost like going from um um shifting from what is assumed to what is known, getting that clarity, right? Um, it's almost like a facts versus feelings reset. You know, I when I feel myself getting emotional about something uh in the workspace, I pause and I say, wait a minute, Adrian, what is feeling and what is fact? Because sometimes we will operate off of feeling as though it's fact and it's not right. What's true about this situation right now? Um, and you know, sometimes um I know a lot of times we tend to want to run away from conflict, but sometimes conflict is good because conflict sometimes can take you to that point of clarity. Doesn't always have to be chaotic, right? You can take you to clarity, and so leaders, we want to remind you use a fact versus feelings reset when you find yourself. And then Charles, talk to us about what transformation looks like, and so keep that at the forefront of your mind so you are working towards that uh as you are leading. On that note, I want to ask you this question, Charles. What practical habits help leaders to stay grounded, to stay solution focused and influential instead of getting pulled into unnecessary workplace drama? Talk to us.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

So the function of drama is to create more drama. And and so if you can, uh one thing that'll happen, and this is one of the easiest ways, is to actually make sure that all the conversations become direct conversations. So uh a lot of times people will go to leaders and say, Hey, I'm struggling with uh Sally, and I need your help with it. And what they don't want is actually help with Sally, they want to create a limiting perception in your mind about what their perception is about Sally, and the and the the easiest way to go handle that is to actually go, seems like you need to have a conversation with Sally. I'm more than happy to give you some coaching about it. Here are my terms. If I coach you on this, you've got to tell me how the conversation turned out. That way they actually go have the conversation, and what that does is it stops drama in its track because a lot of times when people are asking for help, they're not asking for help. They're just creating mischief and they guise it in a way that, of course, people are going, oh, I want to help you, right? But what they're there, there was no there was no ask of true, I need coaching on this. They just wanted to throw the other person under the bus. So understanding those types of distinctions are what allow you to kind of stay grounded. You actually did one, in fact, you've been using distinctions throughout this uh conversation. Like I use the distinction between internal, external, locus of control, drama versus leadership. You did facts versus feelings. Interestingly enough, I have another book coming out in 2026 called Seeing What Others Miss. I had to teach a large language model. So I was teaching an LLM this summer how to ask questions, which means I go, well, how do I ask questions? Oh, I carry around more distinctions than most people, and I actually recognize, just like you were just using, I recognize when distinctions are being used, contrasting ideas to convey knowledge or information. So I I wrote a book with 750 distinctions and 1500 questions for the large language model, and that's I mean, now it's become a book. We're just doing the formatting because I went, you know who else could use that? Human beings, human beings. If I'm getting a large language model to be smarter, well, then this would be one of those books where you could just sit there, read through all of these different distinctions, whether it's you know, facts versus feelings, internal versus external locus of control, and by putting a reflective question in there, uh you know, you think of growth mindset, fixed mindset. That's a distinction, right? Well, that's just one paragraph in the book. So it's just like there's 750 of those. So that's that's something that will be coming out. That to bring it back to your question, having more distinctions inside of your head, much like just drama versus leadership, that awareness of even having facts versus feelings, those things are all creating self-regulation, right? They give you that awareness, and the more that you have, the more that you can sit there. Like when I was stuck on the ski heel, I got to the state and I go, Oh, this is an absence of choice. I had a mental model to know what was creating my frustration. And whether it's frustration or resignation, the more models you carry, the less at the effect of circumstances you'll be.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

I love that. I love that. Transformation station, we're getting a lot of rich leadership gems here. I want you to really hone in, write down, take notes, and tell me in the chat. Tell us in the chat. We're here, we're live. What's resonating with you? And even if you're watching this on the replay right now or you're listening, go ahead and A DM, let us know what's resonating with you because Charles is teaching us today. So I for me personally, I'm really curious about this question right here. I really want to hear your answer to this. So, Charles, how does a leader's communication style either reduce drama or unintentionally fuel it within a team or organization?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Um, so both word choice and uh sound energy.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

So I can sit here and go, and and you you'll just feel this, but if I go, Adrian, why did you choose those glasses? Right, and you're gonna fit sit there and go, wow, I don't like them anymore, right? There's a you know, so I just judged you and then had a sound energy that went along with it. Why did you choose that as an identity level statement, right? I can tell you why I did something, but if I'm asking you why, you did something. So all of this is encapsulated in language and then sound energy. So that's at the behavioral level. You can actually modify those behaviors if you're not changing at the identity level, then the behavior, even it like it takes a lot of willpower to actually be linguistically accurate to not be offensive to other individuals, and and and so the shift actually has to happen at uh a level of identity. Who do I want to be inside of the conversation? How do I want to actually uh unleash in the other person? And and so part of especially since this is one around leadership, yes, a mindset is useful as is how do I see the human being across from me, and then how do I create their leadership in this moment? How do I actually, and by the way, I'm now not not to be too reflective, but there's times when I pointed out your genius, right? So if I'm doing that consistently, people feel good about having a conversation with me. If I sit there and by the way, I can't be fake, right? Correct, just the idea of I have to be able to hear the distinction. So me pointing out your sound energy, me pointing out some of the distinctions that you're doing, you're going, oh man, I I feel good about this conversation with Charlie. And I'm not doing it to as a gambit, right? It's just like the identity is I'm a at the identity level, I'm an educator. So my job is to educate, and that means I can stay in the moment and see things, which will then be educational for your listeners. So all of that gets you into a different mindset, which has a different set of behaviors show up, and you don't have to work hard at it because you've shifted it, and that's why the distinction really understanding the difference between the, and there's so many nuances that go into the drama triangle and to the leadership triangle that allows somebody a frictionless way of getting out of it because drama replicates almost 25x faster than leadership. They've done studies now about being in an environment where there is drama, how quickly it actually generates, where leadership takes a concerted effort through time in order to make it happen. And so having the language distinctions, having the identity, having the values, having the belief, having just even the energy structure about where you're placing your attention at any moment in time, that's an aggregate that comes together in a way that's powerful for others. And the if the function of drama is to create more drama, the function of leadership is to create more leadership. Yes, yes, this world needs a little bit more right now.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Yes, absolutely, 1000%. Leaders talk to us. We want to hear from you. You know, I was thinking about this leadership best practice, which says schedule daily reflection time to review triggers, decisions, and unresolved tension before it escalates. And so, you know, as Charles has been talking to us about how our communication, right? He started off talking about tone of voice and how that can amplify, right? Or how they can decrease, you know, this is an opportunity for us to reflect. And leaders, we're giving you an invitation right now. You can do this on a daily basis. Stop, run, run, run, run, run, but just stop, pause, and reflect on a daily basis. What triggered you today? How was your decision making today? Did you make your decision off of grounded foundation, or was it all reactional based on what was happening in the moment? Are there any unresolved tensions that you still have within you that maybe you don't need to carry forward into tomorrow, or you have an opportunity today to resolve or to let go of? Because all of these factor into how we lead. And strong leaders, they nobody's perfect, but strong leaders do their best to create space before reacting. And so we want to invite you to create calm that produces a culture. And you know, Charles, talk to us about growing leaders, produce a culture that helps to grow leaders. So, Charles, I as we turn the corner on this masterclass that you are giving us right now, I want to ask you this final question. For the leader that's listening and watching that says, you know what, Adrian, Charles, I'm with you. I hear you and I agree, I concur. For these leaders who want to build healthier cultures, what mindset shift will help them, will help us to move from reacting to drama toward leading with clarity, accountability, and trust.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

So drama is pretty much a hardwired automatic pattern that lives at the unconscious level. We have about three milliseconds before we're into a predictive pattern from the past or predicting from the future, which means that we're not present. The one access point for presence is taking a breath. And I'm talking about a belly breath. And if you need to fuel the cognitive capacity to choose again, my keynote's called leadership is a choice. Yes, and and if you're in the automatic, you're no longer choosing. So if you can take a deep, everybody, just even right now, take a deep belly breath, right? Where you put that on in there, you can actually feel almost in the prefrontal cortex, you're activating the ability to make a choice. And not choosing is a choice. I'm just saying that choosing is a better choice. So the more that you are actively engaging and choosing, you're setting up the pattern so that leadership becomes a way of life.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

I love that. So I'm gonna ask you really off the cuff, one more final question. Talk to us a little bit more. Like, can you talk to the leader that's on the fence right now in terms of they're sitting here and they're saying, you know what, this is true. I know that I should be leading differently, but leading dramafully, emotionally, that's been a pattern. What would you say to that leader today?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

I, you know, it's it's tough to kind of sit there and go, I would get the mental map between drama and leadership. I wrote a book called Save Your Drama for Your Mama. It it goes through a journey that allows you to unlock that awareness inside of yourself so that you can make better choices. I can't do it in 30 seconds, but the book will the book will cover it if you if you take that journey of reading that. It's a provocative title meant to provoke you into understanding and and uh and creating a deeper awareness of who you are at any moment in time.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

I love that. Thank you so much. So I know that there are listeners and viewers that want to, they want to get the books, they want to, you know, find out more about how they can navigate this journey. What's the best way or ways to be able to continue to engage with you?

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah, so um you can go to www.shepherdpartners.com, S-H-E-P-P-A-R-D, Partners. Uh, Amazon carries the books, get off the fence, and uh Save Your Drama for Your Mama, the new books, seeing what others miss, and a children's book is coming out this year called The Path of Light. So all of that's uh available. Reach out, uh, the Human Presence Institute, which is humanpresence.org. My biotech company is Arjuna Therapeutics. Any one of those, feel free to reach out. We've got, I think we're as an organization, we're working at making the world a better place.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

I love it. I love it. That's a perfect way to end this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, and most importantly, for adding such rich value. Transformation station, I'm going to invite you. You saw the link on the screen. It's also in the description box. I want you to go ahead and reach out to Charles, get those books, go on Amazon, but also most importantly, reach out to him, send him a message, let Charles know that you saw that you heard this episode, let him know what resonated with you, and ask questions because we believe the community that learns together grows together. And that's what we're doing. Charles, again, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been awesome and a pleasure to have you with us.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Adrian, what a pleasure. Great, great, great conversation.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Thank you so much. Well, Transformation Station, I tell you, this conversation was a reminder to us today. What did it remind me? It reminded me that leadership is not measured by how loudly I respond, but how effectively I create clarity in moments of tension. And Charles challenged us to rise above reaction and to lead with emotional discipline, accountability, and purpose. I want to thank you for joining us here on Transformation Station Leadership Podcast every Monday and Wednesday. This is the place where you need to be. And if this episode challenged your thinking, I invite you right now to share this episode with another leader, a team member, or organization. Use this to start your team staff meeting. Your team is ready to replace drama with direction. So until next time, keep leading with clarity, keep choosing principles over noise, and continue your transformation journey.